A light divorce….
I would still write after my silly emotional outburst yesterday… but I promise it was not a cry for attention as much as a strong emotional reaction to some feedback I was given when I was off guard…. In a bad moment I wanted to throw everything out of the window I sometimes react too strongly and feel stupid afterwards Anyway… to answer a question Nader asked once, where do I know these people from? I have always been involved in social work… and through this work I have met many interesting people that do not follow the same streamline we follow in our daily routines… also, I am the type who chats with everyone, maids, sales people, doctors, taxi drivers… and oh boy the stories you hear… but really the best well of stories you could ever imagine if you are one of those people who have a natural eagerness to learn from life is available in Saudi, when all these women are sitting around without anything to do… just open your ears and indulge….
Anyway… I caught my friend S. online few days ago. S. appears to have made an awful mess of her life. I don’t know any one who has covered so much ground in such a short space of time. Since her graduation she has been married, has had a baby boy and lost him at birth, divorced her husband, quarreled with her family. There seems to have been no reason for her divorce from the ORDINARY point of view; the marriage just simply didn’t work. They weren’t compatible… She was brought up on the theory that MARRIAGE is not only siter for a women but an achievement… “siter is another word that I hate especially when coupled with the word marriage, as if women are daireen 3ala 7il sha3irhom waiting for this Mr. man to yustorhom! ikh… sometimes our culture has hateful expressions.
When she finished university, she was naturally eager to start on her career, but M.’s family presented themselves in the old fashioned way. Her family scanned him and his family closely, and found him perfect in every respect…good family, good morals, good Financial position, good looking. S. was in love with him. Ever since she was 16 her mother was taking her to every wedding in Amman maybe ibn il 7alal would see her… She had a big wedding and lots of new clothes and dozens of embroidered towels. Everything looked propitious.
But as they began to get acquainted, they realized they were fundamentally different… they didn’t like the same books or jokes or people or amusements…. they did not share the same political opinions, or religious principals or even methods of children raising…. they often found themselves on two different extremes. I suppose most traditional, orthodox people would think it awful to break up a marriage on such innocent grounds. It seemed so to me at first; but as she went on piling up detail on detail each trivial in itself, but making a mountainous total, I agreed with S. that it was awful to keep it going. It wasn’t really a marriage; it was a mistake. So one morning at breakfast, when the subject of what they should do for the summer came up, she said quite casually that she thought she would research on how she could get a divorce without so much fuss… and for the first time in years he agreed with her.
You can imagine the outraged feelings of her ultra conservative family had. In all the seven generations that have been tracked on the family tree. They have NEVER had anything so scandalous like this to record in the family history. It all comes from giving women too much freedom…. “If he had only got drunk and dragged me about by the hair,” S. wailed, “it would have been legitimate; but because we didn’t actually throw things at each other, no one could see any reason for a divorce.” The pathetic part of the whole business is that both she and M. were admirably fitted to make some one else happy. They just simply didn’t match each other; and when two people don’tmatch, all the ceremonies in the world can’t marry them…. I told you guys society IS changing!
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After scratching my had for a few seconds then consulting with dictionary.com, I realized what the word “siter” is.
In any case, one of the worst misconceptions some people have is that the couple will get to know each other after marriage. This is the apex of bullshit.
I just don't understand the sentence in the last paragraph where you say “It all comes from giving women too much freedom”. If S had true freedom, she would have gone out with M longer and made a better judgment. I am surprised you say she was in love with him only to discover they have nothing in common. I am not blaming her here. M too is too short sighted to have seen their differences before marriage.
iyas
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lol…. Iyas even your most serious comments make me laugh! I just imagined you doing exactly that scratching your head and opening the dictionary…! which was honestly funny…
On a more serious thought, the too much freedom were her quoted aunt's words!both S. and M. were young and had no experience in life, i mean we are talking about really conservative people…who have been brought with the idea of (dil rajel wa la dil 7eit), and the boy.. well you know better about how some men are in our society… i want a woman who has not seen the sun! this is the result… in the old times people would just bear things and say nothing… now people dont see the point of bearing things anymore…
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I think Arab people would be more happy if they knew divorce could be an outlet some very terrible marriages.
But as for this situation, even though “dating” and all that comes with it (I guess from a western perspective) is not allwed in the arab culture, two people can still get to know each other by talking to one another and taking their time before the consider even the engagement. While my parents raised us not to date, etc, they both believe that once you have met a person of interest, you can spend time with that person really getting to know them.
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-Linda
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Linda, I believe even in Amman people started thinking that way… thank God…i mean you are totally right… people should get to know the person before getting married…but then again…I asked my grandmother once about getting to know someone before marrying them, ans she told me that on her days, she met her husband on her wedding night, just like everyone she knew… and they lived happily ever after… agian like everyone she knew….unlike our days where people date and get married and still get divorced because they are not happy together and sometimes even after living together for a while… I guess it is just a different perspective on life.
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I was told when living in Jordan for some months that calling off a marriage during engagment in Jordan and elsewhere in the MIddle East is somewhat common… So if the couple are set up with each other they have from engagement to marraige to get to know each other and see if it will work, thus enagament turns into dating in a way… Is this true in any way or is breaking an engagment just as bad as getting divorced? I suppose the consequenses are differant for men and women, the latter being more stigmatized.
-chris
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Well it depends on the family, and the social and economic stripe this family comes from, and how conservative they are…the environement, and if the couple are married which is what people call “katib kitab” which is equal to the church ceremony, only in the middle east, it is done at home and can be done a very long time before the actual marriage party… see in the middle east marriage is only a party, the actual ceremony happens when this katib kitab takes place…. breaking engagements can be a big deal and can be a simple deal, depends on all these elements mentioned above…but it is actually common to break engagements…. thinking about it, we have such a complicated set of rules…
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as far as i know, an “engagement” for may is an actual marriage sans living together with all it entails in terms of intimacy. “marriage” as madas mentioned, is the actual party which may take place weeks to months after. legally speaking, the couple are husband and wife during that time. breaking off this engagement is also a legal divorce. however, the status of the wife is technically “divorced without knowing her man”, “knowing” in the biblical sense of the word, or in Arabic “mutallaqa wa lam yadkhol biha”. so in a sense, this kind of engagement is not true dating because the couple are officially married and breaking it off may result in social stigmas only slightly less severe than divorce after the the actual “marriage” ceremony. hence many females, and to a lesser extent, males, feel the pressure to go on with the engagement in the hope that differences will be alleviated with time. unfortunately, many end up with divorces with worse outcomes for the wife and in many cases, the children.
the choice of the partner should be made prior to engagement.
-me (self-centered jameed)
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Chris,
My understanding is: when a couple gets engaged and the katib kitab is performed they are considered legally married…husband and wife. I would consider breaking off the “engagement” synonymous with divorce. And I would imagine in such a culture it is worse for the female. The wedding party usually proceeds the consummation of the marriage, from what I know.
My problem is that the katib kitab usually happens soon after the couple meets. And some parents I feel are quick to jump on this and require it b/c of the social pressures/norms. How are the children expected to get to know one another as people and moreso as potential husband and wife? How are they expected to discuss things that couple above never discussed or find out things about the other before they are married. I don't know about you, but I would find it difficult to discuss such things with some I only met a few days prior….but we are talking about spending the rest of your lives together. If I wanted to know, then I would hold nothing back. I think more forward thinking families allow the kids to atleast get to know each other beforehand, sort of like testing the waters of compatability and what they want out of life. What is so wrong about the kids “dating” in this sense? I hope that both people feel empowered enough to ask direct and honest questions and answer truthfully. We are talking about two people lives here and some are treating it as a game…hoping that it works out or hoping he/she will change into what the other wants. Or maybe it the parents wanting to marry their children off. Quite sad.
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just a note… I started believing that a person would NEVER trully know another person unless you live with them…. many argue that the engagement is a period where the two act their best behaviour… my dad told me once about a guy who used to say he has the best fiancee and the best land of wheat, he goes to see the land at 4:00 am and the fiancee at 4:00 PM.. so one day someone suggests that he should switch the times…he should see his fiancee at 4:00 am and his land at 4:00 PM… and oh boy the shock he got… will leave it to your imagination…
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Marriage is sharing your life with the other half, and by the other half i mean “your other half”. It's accepting his/her bad habits, the people you don't like from their family, any physical feature that u find unattractive and even about giving compliments sometimes. I don't believe in divorce as many of you guys do, because I believe it's very difficult to find someone who shares a lot with you these days because we are becoming more and more individualized with time. People have to make sacrifices to let a marriage work and many of them don't care to do so.
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shoot i'm Hareega
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I had a chance to sit in on a jordanian engagement ceremony, a friend's cousin was getting married, (what is it called in Arabic again? it wasnt katib kitab…) it was in interesting affair. I saw the male side of it where the head male of the groom's side reads to the father of the bride, we then had some kenafa and coffee and everyone shook hands. What goes on where the women are?
-Chris
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This was a jaha… it is not an engagement… basically it is one of the most beautiful symbolic traditions in the Arab world because it gives so much value to women… usually after everything is agreed upon between the bride and groom and their families, there comes the jaha it is where the family of the groom goes officially to ask the girl's hand frm her father… they bring many important men as a symbol that this girl is very important… and they are all responsible for her happiness and that no harm would happen to her… and her father brings many men as well as a symbol of if anything happens to her… the groom's family have all these men to answer for! the most importat figer in the groom side will ask for her hand and say that they will not drink your coffee unless you will give us what we came for… and the most important figure on her side will usually say drink your coffee… all through the groom will be outside, he will not come in unless the coffee has been served, which means that they have agreed on the marriage… usually women would be in another room, and once this is done there will be a party… sometimes it is combined with the engagement and sometimes it is also combined with the katib kitab… tribal traditons are fascinating
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what if you are stuck in a really crappy marriage and you both tried your best but it does not work… what is the solution? i really dont want to wake up one day in my sixties and think… man i had a crappy life, i wish i got rid of the sucker when i was 30!!!
bad example…but well i am sure you got the point 
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yes that is what it was called, a jaha. I was fortunate enough to witness this last year. thanks for the explaination it makes more sense to me now what was going on.
-Chris
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- Lina
First of all, I think Ziad was right when he said that your posts are great but they require a certain thoughtful mood to comment
I always discuss this issue with my mom… how I detest the way people traditionally get married; a guy decides the time is right for marriage THEN starts looking for the right candidate!!! I don't want to generalize because like you say society IS changing, but not to a big extent yet! Whenever I ask mom: How will you get to really know someone?? Just know them… and based on that consider commitment? and she'd be like: Yes I know what you're saying but dating isn't yet really acceptable in our society… because people will always be pointing fingers at the girl, like years later they would still say: “Oh didn't she go out with 'flan'?” “Yee ra7at o ijat.. bla bla”
Linda has a point that my parents tend to agree with, that you can always get to know the person through certain activities, talking, and interacting at different social events, without 'dating'! I don't know…
and Hareega makes an interesting point, that people are becoming very individualized!! No one is perfect and you will always have to make some compromises and live with things you might not really like!!
Uffff 7'alas I don't know!!!
One last note… I love the 'jaha' and 'tal3et el 3aroos' and these traditions
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Son Ad (Adrian)
Penso que delatácheste moito na mensaxe. Faloche así para evitar que entendan os teus amigs por se non saben o que vai a contecer. Pareceme ven este tanteo pra saber o que opinan.
Un bico, coidate e xa sabes que nos tes aqui por se te sentes agobiada e necesitas mimos. Querote Ad. Aqui ninguien o sabe.
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Marriage is really very complicated in Jordan, I think that lots of work has to be done in order to get over these old fashioned thoughts.
Although I think that things are changing slightly, and the status of Divorced for woman is not as horrible as before.
It is important to know that the couples get married quickly because it is the only way for them to get some liberty, and that is why during the engagement period, girls are so excited about the fact that they have some more liberty that they don't really see the true part of the relationship, and that is why they get the shock that marriage is not what they expected after they start living with the person.
I know many people in Jordan who live all their lives married to someone with absolutely nothing in common between them, so they live for the image, for the family, children, …etc.
And I wonder, is this what S. really wants from her life?
Some people have to move in order to make the changes.
All revolutions started with only few people, and we definately need more of S. to change the image of Divorce
E.
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Ok, I am in the writing mood.
I would like to comment on the person who wrote “Tough Questions”.
I had the chance to live in Europe and see other cultures and other people.
There is an important Muslim community that live here.
They have immigrated many years ago from their countries, and they tried to conserve their traditions and their religion.
They acted like home for many years, but later they had a problem with the new generation who was born in Europe and was a bit lost between the traditions of their families and the traditions of Europe.
Concerning marriage, many people don't get married anymore, even in all the official documents, the civil status is no longer Married, Divorced, widowed, or single, there are new cases such as “Living in common”, which means a couple living togeather without marriage.
I was very shocked at the beginning of this situation, where people live for many years, have several children and are not married.
The muslim community was confronted with this, so they tried to adapt it to their religion.
Now all young Muslim couples, when they wish to live togeather.
The families bring what they call a “Taleb”, who is the Imam of the mosque in the city. he comes with other imams, they do A Fatiha with the families and the couples, without any Kitab since in Islam no Kitab is needed, and after this ceremony, the couple is attached in a Muslim marriage, that is not really considered a marriage in the civil society, and their status stays always “Living in common”.
After the period of living togeather, many couples get married eventually, but after having the chance of living togeather and getting really to know each other, which is much better than the Engagement period, because they know the situation of the other person, so you never see these extravagant marriages like Amman, where each marriage would cost a lot, and ofcourse the family of the man have to pay all this, then after the marriage all couples say, we were stupid to pay all this for the marriage, it would have been better to keep the money for us.
WOW that was long
E.
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believe me this is something that everyone in the Arab world struggles with… I want to tell you the secret… TRUST YOUR instinct! dont worry, when you meet the one you would know he is the one… everyone knows, sometimes people get married for the wrong reasons… running away from their families, getting older, society pressure, the guy is a catch even if he is not the right one… etc…etc… if you do this you will have to face the risk that it might not work… but if you are with somone because you really think they are right for you… you would fight for it to work!
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I am a firm beleiver in this. I think when you know, you know. There is no greater feeling than finding your soulmate and knowing this person will complete you and you'll grow old together. I really don't know or understand how a married couple falls out of love (nor do I ever want to find out)…unless they entered into if for all the wrong reasons and are tired of “faking it” to please others. I think that marriage is all about trust, support, compromise with any of these lacking, the marriage starts to crumble.
And with tradition….I could do without it…but it is kinda facinating at the same time. As everything is agreed upon before this takes place, has anyone heard of a time when the coffee was not consumed and the man's men left?
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Lina, it is not this simple, nothing in life is this simple… people get married for so many different reasons, and love is not always the main reason…some people fall in love after they get married, and some others realize they were not in love… human beings are very complex creatures, we are ruled by rationalization that is burried very deep inside us, we dont understand ourselves… the point is and i will ask you this again… dont be too harsh on human beings behaviours… we are what we are, and sometimes even the most wrong people commit, they do it for love, and for pure good.
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the anonymous up here wasn't me
But I do agree with you, human relationships are quite complex…
I love the way you put it, you have a beautiful human way of looking at things
Lina
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Hareega
Mariam probabaly you're right in that divorce is the best solution in many marriages, but from what we see, many divorces are avoidable if the couple were more tolerant with each other, and if they were mature enough to expect what would their marriage bring them. That's the main reason i'm not getting married now: i don't know how serious it is to be with one woman to the rest of my life. I'm amazed by how many men and women are getting married before the age of 23 or 24. I don't think that divorce should ever be an option whenver a couple decide to get married. If one of them think before marriage “Well, if this won't work, we'll get a divorce” then this marriage wouldn't likely work very well.
I remember a very emotional episode of “wa22ef ta2ellak” On LBC 3 or 4 years ago on the new year's day, when miracuolously the LBC team could bring together a man and his wife who have been separated for SEVEN years, each living in a different continent. The reasons for divorce were “they couldn't understand each other, the man was hesitant in a lot of his decisions….etc” After seven years they came back together, but among all of that we forget the main losers: the children. There's nothing worse in the life of a child to see the most imporant people to him fighting or living seprartely, and it would take a long time to just mention how bad of an influence would that leave on them.
Brielfy, when i get married i'll make a vow that my wife is just another part of me that i'll never leave even if i dsicover later she's more nervous than i thought she is, even if she became sick, infertile, became physically not-pretty, or any such reason which i really find so stupid to end a blessed relationship like marriage.
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Closer to heart, than the rational mind, wouldn’t you find such a case is a worthy issue to ponder about?
A bitter standoff, between the parents of a 12-year-old and Texas social workers and doctors over radiation treatment. The parents, lost custody of their daughter Katie a week ago, after opposing radiation therapy as unnecessary.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/11/national/11child.html?th&emc=th
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I know i will sound cruel… but so many times, parents dont deserve to have children… honestly, I have seen cases, where i just wanted to snatch the kid, and put them in a loving home, because you know they will get screwed up, there is no other way… anyway, this is not the issue here.
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I have a very direct question, if I may of course… are you a guy or a girl?! I was was one 100% sure you are a girl, but after this comment… well… I am not that sure anymore:) anyway… no woman in our society wants to be labeled a divorcee…do you know how harshly society punishes divorced woman? do you know how hard it is to move from your own house to the hosue of our parents again, because you can't live alone and independently? the point divorce is a corrective measure rather than a preventive measure… what i mean poeple dont get to this point until they have exhausted their options… some at least…and by the way, if you are a man and you trully think like this about your wife when you get married, then your wife will be a very lucky woman, because, very few men think like this, and every single woman NEEDS this and probably vice versa… only i dont know how to think from a man's perspective.
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Hareega
loool you though i was a girl loool, anyway, i know exactly what you're saying, and i agree so much that the society is so harsh on the divorced woman, just as it is harsh on women in general. When divorce is the best option, that means marriage was so wrong in the first place, that one or both of the couple involved were unsure of why they wanan get married, or were lying to each other or to themselves, or they just didn't understand the responsilities marriage carries with it.
My point is the best way to avoid divorce is to take your time before getting married. Don't look for the hero or the godess you see in movies, look for a partner who has faults and mistakes and know them before getting married, because marriage is just having a new member of the family. You can't get rid of your father or mother even if you didn't like them, and so the same should apply to the partner. That's idealism and we should all seek it.
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“when two people don’t match, all the ceremonies in the world can’t marry them….”
“It wasn’t really a marriage; it was a mistake…”
“how she could get a divorce without so much fuss…”
This only happens when both parts agree on the above, otherwise, no matter how good person you are, you’ll go through the hugest fuss you never imagined to have
…
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Trust me, you don’t need to tell me about it. S is married again now, she has two children, but her aunts are still scandalized… They still don’t talk about it, they still think she has brought shame to the family with that one incident, But Thank God, she is married now… By the way, i disagree with you, you will go through a huge fuss anyway
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Tell me about it, am going through this huge fuss !! but now better than later
…
HamduleAllah …
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Madas Reply:
June 9th, 2012 at 07:15
Dear, you have my full support
but believe me it will pass, and people tend to forget after a while! khalas once the next story is there, yours will be forgotten, this is how our people function. Good luck and I hope you will find peace and happiness. Also allow me to congratulate you on your courage. This decision is quite hard and taking it is even harder.
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