Comments on: widowhood, divorcehood in Quraan

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By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 09 Mar 2005 17:29:15 +0000

I think the advantage of this is also it allows the time for the women to properly mourn her husband and basically respect for the dead. I mean you are not going to go party right after hearing of someone’s passing, are you?

Wardatkhaleej

(http://livejournal.com/users/)

By: madas

madas — Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:53:24 +0000

Eman, Jeff, Natasha and everyone else who wrote.

Thank you for your comments and replies, and please do NOt worry about long replies, as this turnd out to be much more informative than i originally imagined I think we are all saying the same things from differet angles. Anyone who believs in religions would agree with Eman that religions are meant to be peaceful and should not cancel our natural and human tendencies to think and question. We can go on forever with an intelligent and sophisticated discussion as this one… and i find this absolutely amazing.

One of the things i enjoy a lot about blogging is that it opens doors for intellectual debates such as this one… For me it is enough to know that there are people like us in the world, who can think and coexist even if our point of views can vary and differ. So thanks again for turning this into an enjoyable discussion full of questions that get us to think.

(http://livejournal.com/users/madas)

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Jan 2005 15:50:52 +0000

As for your last question, the ideal Islamic society existed long time ago, an example is in the time of Khalifa Omar Bin Abdelaziz. Muslims were known for their loyalty, decency and reliability. People from around the world trusted them, & went to them to study their life, religion, language & culture. It was a perfect society to the extent that when Muslims wanted to give away the Zakat money, the responsible ones for giving the money away came to Omar Bin Abdelaziz and said: we gave the poor, Muslims, Christians and Jews, but we still have money, he said: give anyone who has debts, they came back and said: we did, still plenty of money, he said: give to the countries who have gone through a natural disaster or war, they came back& said: we did, still a lot of money. Then he said: go buy wheat and spread it on the mountains of Muslim countries so the birds & can eat without the need to fight for survival…
This is only one example.
Today, Muslims are full of fear, they fear power, they fear being looked at as a “backward” society, they fear getting poor, and they believe the only way to be great again is imitating others.

Hope I helped clear up the picture Jeff And sorry for the loooong reply Mariam

Eman-Aqua

(http://livejournal.com/users/)

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Jan 2005 15:48:57 +0000

Now I don’t claim being an expert either, but I consider myself capable of providing some answers as a Muslim.
Let me begin with Islam’s simplicity. Quran has all rules clear, but we humans love complicating things. E.g. let’s say your professor in university asked you to “right a research paper about nature. I want it on my desk in 2 weeks” As simple & direct as this is, I’m sure many would bombard the professor with questions like: can we do it in groups? Which sort of nature do you want it, sea, desert, plants…? How long should it be…etc. It might not be a perfect example, but I’m trying to say that it’s in our nature to ask, we think we’ll simplify things, when we do exactly the opposite.
The same goes for the time of the prophet. People were asking him, they asked for more details just coz they wanted to make sure they’re doing things correctly. He provided those answers in his speech (hadith) and there were ones who wrote his speech to make sure they don’t forget his answers. So Muslims ended up with Quran, & the detailed interpretation of it by the Prophet.
As for versions of (hadith) , nothing new, up till now we have rumors in our world, & there are people who say this is a rumor and this is not. In everything in life, from celebrity news, to politics, to our personal relationships. It’s so normal to have facts & rumors.
So bottom line is: Quran is the source, if there’s something you fail to understand for any reason, or you have doubts, then you can simply aid yourself with the guidance of the prophet.

As for your question “why was so much time and effort put into creating this vast resource of haddith and why the continuing debate after and over it?” it’s coz there are people who want to get deeper & see all possibilities. They specialize in Religion & start thinking out loud. Exactly like Medicine, philosophy, literature. Each person has their own way of thinking & they wish not to follow other interpretations & start studies & research. Sometimes they get to very interesting results, other times they only complicate things. Muslim’s fault –most of the time- is following others who specialize in religion blindly, because they themselves are so far from their religion. If they were close to their religion, they wont need getting lost between many interpretations. They should be selective. How to know what’s right & how to be away from any control? Answer is also provided in Quran: Islam is a modest religion. It’s a religion of simplicity , not complicity (deen yosr).
So even if we want to “make sure we follow the rules correctly” & even if we turn to others, we should simplify things & follow what is easiest to fulfill as long as it doesn’t contradict the rules. Islam urges all to be “the knowing” but unfortunately many choose to be “those willing to accept the views of the knowing”.

As for condemning Islam I guess the answer is: all believers, whatever their religion, know a religion is peaceful by nature. It’s against war, terrorism, racism, destruction & killing the innocent. So when someone does such crimes & claims it’s coz his religion urges him to do so, then we should all know it’s nonsense, it’s just what these criminals wish to do according to their own sick minds. And whoever supports them, even if they claim they were highly religious, we should all know they’re lying, coz no religion asks for destruction.

So it’s not difficult to know who & what is correct. Because we have our own brains that we must use to find our own answers. Again we can ask for help, but if the help sounded against the peaceful & simple nature of Islam, or if it contradicted its rules, then we should never follow it. This is the great thing about Islam, it’s that one is responsible for what he does according to what he thinks as long as it does not harm others.

Eman-Aqua

(http://livejournal.com/users/)

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:43:12 +0000

Mr. JTynes

There were many important questions that you raised here, I dont believe i am qualified to answer… but i have one comment here, I guess many people are calling for the simple answer of going back to Quran, because of all the complications that were created through the centuries through hadiths, ijtihad and fatwa and even corruption and political unrests. Which made a very straight forwrd religion an abslotely complicated religion that is open to all sorts of interpretations and abuse.

I am one of those who tend to believe that one of the most beautiful features in islam is the fact that it is a direct relationship with God, no need for wastas to talk to, or understand or ask for anything from anyone else but God. It is as personal and straight forward as it gets.

Samar B.

(http://livejournal.com/users/)

By: mister_jtynes

mister_jtynes — Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:22:09 +0000

I find all this discussion very interesting. It does beg more questions, however. I'd always understood that Islam was a simple, direct faith that, as you mention Eman, allowed for a one-on-one relationship with the creator.

But it seems time and perhaps “humankind” has put a tremendous amount of effort in complicating things. Again no expert here, but aren't there just volumes of haddith, which to my understanding provide additional guidance and direction to the faithful? And then there appears to be a whole school of discussion about which of these are valid. Many suggest “returning to the Quran” as the answer here.

But I would ask, if turning to the Quran is the simple answer to understanding, why was so much time and effort put into creating this vast resource of haddith and why the continuing debate after and over it? If things are as simple and direct as they are supposed to be in Islam, why has there been millennia spent complicating them?

It seems, at least to me, that although the “guidance” that is put so firmly in place in Islam was supposed to go into the hands of the individual, it has been regularly revised to suit the hands of the “controller,” whether that be sheikh or other religious leader or even a political leader in an Islamic society.

In my most humble opinion, I think this was inevitable with the placement of so much guidance. When you say to someone “these are the rules and it is important you follow them to go on to the life ever-lasting” everyone will make doubly sure they do them perfectly. This tremendous attention to “making sure I follow the rules correctly” by its very nature opens the door to those that will claim “greater knowledge” about the rules, giving them power over those willing to acknowledge that they know less, creating a kind of inequity in the faithful: “the knowing” and “those willing to accept the views of the knowing”. This creates a hierarchy.

The problem with this — again at least in my eyes — is that Islam wanted to dispense with a formal hierarchy, as say the Catholics have. What seems to have occurred instead is an informal hierarchy that allows most anyone to become an “expert” and spout out a fatwa. Without a central source to “check” things, a multitude of sources has sprouted claiming to know best, leaving those searching for answers more confused than informed.

And now, when so many outside want to condemn Islam, many within the ummah say the actions of some of their brothers are not in keeping with the faith. But it is difficult to find a direct line of responsibility to check this message, particularly when others within say the same actions are in fact allowed by the faith. Who is correct? Who can be trusted to provide the most accurate opinion?

This brings me back to the more central point in all this: If Islam was intended to be a simple faith understood by all, how has it gotten so confusing for so many, particularly those within it? As I mention some of the power structure seems destined for eventual corruption. But more to the point, how to get it back “on track”, if that's the proper way to regard it, when some of those that question are labeled heretics? What happened to Ijtihad? Did Ijtihad's presence hinder more than help by complicating things Mariam?

And the last question along these lines: When and where has an ideal Islamic society existed that put the rules in place and used them properly? My understanding is that it is central to the faith to have the ummah around you and for this reason it is ideal to live in an Islamic society where all the pillars of the faith can be followed and the society can keep the individual in check (a situation that also seems destined for corruption). But, as far as I know, few if any nations have ever been able to implement this ideal. Why is it so difficult? Is it even possible anymore?

Well, those are my thoughts and questions

(http://livejournal.com/users/mister_jtynes)

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Tue, 04 Jan 2005 22:22:30 +0000

Well allow me to disagree a little bit with you Mariam. I believe that it’s not Islam that has to evolve; it’s Muslims way of looking at the rules and their interpretation that should evolve. I mean rules are clear and they apply to every time and environment, but the problem is that most of us Muslims choose to complicate things and compare our current application to that of the ones in the time of the Prophet.
Islam stresses the importance of direct relation between God and the person with no need for any interference whatsoever to someone in between.
But of course some people “sheikhs” have devoted themselves to studying and interpreting Quran, which made them ahead of others in explaining rules. But that does not make them perfect. It’s just our weak faith and our distance from Islam that makes us believe we’re not up to apply the rules correctly, that explains the high percentage of people who blindly follow what “sheikhs” say. And unfortunately most of the “sheikhs” specially in the Arab World, keep relating our environment to that of the prophet and believe that we can never be great Muslims unless we live exactly the same way older generations were living. So they start interpreting the verses of Quran the way they want it to be, and not the way it is. Which leads to all complications and misunderstandings.
And that what makes people doubt that “there is plenty of room for intellectual debate in Islam” .
Jeff, you got it right that most behavior is controlled by rules, although I wouldn’t put it that way, I’d use guided and not controlled Because Islam is a religion and a way of life. In Quran you see guidance to everything from personal matters to social life to economy, trade, war, environment.. etc. But again, misapplication and complicated interpretation is what causes Islam to look that hard and controlling, when it’s not.
Thanks again Mariam for this great post, I love the way you write
Eman-Aqua

(http://livejournal.com/users/)

By: madas

madas — Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:34:45 +0000

Jeff,

The problem of Islam started when Muslim decided to close the door of what is called ijtihad. Ever since Islam stoped evloving. “Laws and rules are spelled out to such an amazing degree” is a vey true statement, but the problem is that life changes and the same rules that applied long time ago stopped applying today. Also Society in the same area changed, what about all the different soscieties around the world? We muslims believe Islam is good for all times and all nations and if this is the case then then it HAS to evolve, it has to have lattitude for questioning and openness and intellectual debates.

(http://livejournal.com/users/madas)

By: mister_jtynes

mister_jtynes — Tue, 04 Jan 2005 20:06:58 +0000

Mariam,

As always, I found your post very interesting. I'm no expert, but your final thought I'm still not sure I agree with. It appears to me that in Islam there is not that much latitude for questioning things. Things are spelled out to such an amazing degree, as I understand it. And people often seek the advice of religious leaders because, at least in their minds, they must follow whatever rules are laid down.

Whether the reality is: “There is plenty of room for intellectual debate in Islam” or not, doesn't it seem that the vast majority of the ummah feels that most behavior is controlled through rules and such. And since it is controlled by rules, isn't the idea of questioning less welcome than you are suggesting? Or am I completely off my rocker here?

I came across an intense and interesting debate on the room for equality/feminism in Islam at FrontPage magazine the other day. It is really long and the debate gets heated at times but I found it very interesting and worth the read. Maybe you will as well.

(http://livejournal.com/users/mister_jtynes)